Live at the National Constitution Center

The Girl in the Picture

March 30, 2021

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This week, back in 1973, the last U.S. combat troops left South Vietnam, and America’s eight-year intervention in the Vietnam War ended. In 2019, the National Constitution Center hosted a program featuring activist Kim Phúc Phan Thi, and we’re sharing that conversation from our archives this week. When she was nine years old, Phúc was severely injured and running from her bombed village, when an Associated Press photographer captured her and others in one of the most famous photographs from the Vietnam War, which later won the Pulitzer Prize. In this moving program, Phúc discusses her firsthand experience of the Vietnam War and its impact; Mark Bowden, contributing writer for The Atlantic and author of Hue 1968: A Turning Point of the American War in Vietnam offers historical context; and classical composer and jazz trumpeter Hannibal Lokumbe performs and discusses the piece he was moved to compose after seeing Phúc’s photograph. Jeffrey Rosen moderates.

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This episode was produced by Jackie McDermott, Tanaya Tauber, and Lana Ulrich. It was engineered by Greg Scheckler. 

PARTICIPANTS

Mark Bowden is a journalist and author of 13 books, including Hue 1968, Black Hawk Down, and Killing Pablo. He is a regular contributor to The Atlantic, and a longtime staff writer for The Philadelphia Inquirer. His books have regularly appeared on The New York Times bestseller lists. Black Hawk Down was adapted into an Academy Award-winning motion picture, and three others are currently being adapted into TV series. He spent 16 years teaching, first at Loyola University in Maryland, and then at The University of Delaware, where he was the writer in residence from 2015-2017. After graduating in 1973, Bowden worked for The Baltimore News-American. He joined the staff of The Philadelphia Inquirer in 1979, where, among other things, he covered science, football, transportation, politics, crime, and did extensive national and international reporting.

Kim Phúc is the founder of The Kim Foundation International, a nonprofit organization committed to funding programs to heal children in war torn areas of the world. In 1997 UNESCO named her a Goodwill Ambassador for Culture of Peace. She is also an Honorary Member of Kingston Rotary, a member of the Advisory Board for the Wheelchair Foundation, The Free Children Foundation and The World Children Centre in Atlanta. She has received honorary doctorate degrees York University, Griffith University, Queen’s University, University of Lethbridge, and Saint Mary’s University. She is also the recipient of numerous awards, including the International Peace Prize in Dresden Germany in February 2019.

Hannibal Lokumbe is a classical composer and jazz trumpeter. Among his many accomplishments, Hannibal has served as The Philadelphia Orchestra’s composer-in-residence. His long history with the Orchestra began in 1997 with a performance of his oratorio African Portraits. Throughout his tenure, Hannibal reached many different communities of Philadelphia through music and dialogue. He hosted a series of Composer’s Umbrella workshops as an outlet for artists of all backgrounds to collaborate and workshop new music. His work has been performed during the Orchestra’s annual free Martin Luther King, Jr., Tribute Concert as well as special chamber performances for various groups around the city, including the Philadelphia Prison System’s Detention Center in Northeast Philadelphia, St. Francis de Sales School, and Christ Church Neighborhood House. His chamber music has also been presented at Mother Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church, the National Museum of American Jewish History, and the African American Museum in Philadelphia.

Jeffrey Rosen is the president and CEO of the National Constitution Center, a nonpartisan nonprofit organization devoted to educating the public about the U.S. Constitution. Rosen is also professor of law at The George Washington University Law School and a contributing editor of The Atlantic.

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TRANSCRIPT

This transcript may not be in its final form, accuracy may vary, and it may be updated or revised in the future.

Jackie McDermott: [00:00:00] Welcome to Live at the National Constitution Center. I'm Jackie McDermott, the show's producer. This week, we're sharing a program from our archives. In 2019, the National Constitution Center was honored to be joined by Kim Phúc, the subject of one of the most famous photographs of the Vietnam War. Dr. Phúc was joined by composer and trumpeter, Hannibal Lokumbe and author Mark Bowden for a moving conversation with moderator Jeffrey Rosen. Here's Jeff.

Jeff Rosen: [00:00:34] Hannibal will present the world premiere of his tribute to Dr. Phúc, First breath, last size: a journey called life, as well as the tribute performance of the children of fire, which was the piece that he wrote immediately when he was impressed and moved to Duso when he saw the picture of Dr. Phúc. And that will be tomorrow night at the Philadelphia Episcopal cathedral at 6:30 PM and please join if you can. But this morning we are going to hear a preview of the piece, and then we're going to hear from Dr. Phúc and we're also so honored to have Mark Bowden, one of America's most distinguished journalists, who's written pathbreaking books about Vietnam which have helped put the terrible conflict in context, including Who 1968, a turning point in the American war for Vietnam. He's also the author of Black Hawk Down and celebrated journalist for the Atlantic and many other publications. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming our panelists. And Hannibal it's now my great honor to invite you to inspire our audience with a selection from your piece, children of fire.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:01:53] With us, we have the great Anthony Wonseon, I guess you could call that a piano, and the voice of love, Philadelphia's own Karen Slack. I'll play better for you tomorrow night. This music, it's a beautiful struggle, which never ends, much like life. It never ends. That's what I like about it. I love trying.

Jeff Rosen: [00:06:40] Hannibal, it was completely extraordinary. And we felt in the music, the pain of the photo. Tell us why you decided to write the piece and what you felt when you saw the photo. And what were you trying to convey in the music?

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:06:58] I had first hoped that it was a, just a movie or something, but it was during the day and of course they don't show bodies naked during the day. And I stood up from my seat and I saw this human being, this baby running for her life, and it was a strange thing because it was me. I saw myself, I saw, I saw Medgar Evers. I saw Fannie Lou Hamer. I saw you running. And it's very, it's extraordinary because it was like a dance. You were doing a dance where your arms, like this, reminded me of Judy Jameson, a great dancer. With your arms like this and your hair, and your hair was moving. There's a section in the piece where this young girl sings about how beautiful life is. So, even in all of that pain, I saw this profound beauty in it, and it was obvious to me. That you were being crucified, but at the same time you were being ressurected, I was being resurrected. So, it took me a year to like really get over the emotion of it so that  I could get to the mathematics of the notes, the soul of the notes.

And I finally did and, and believe me, I was glad when I put the last note on the piece, because it took me for a journey. I felt what you, I felt what you felt. That's how powerful it was. I mean, to see a young girl suffering like that, you know. I'm still coming to understand what it is. All of my life, I'll still be learning from what you gave me. And I wanted to give what you gave me to the world. So I wrote the piece, that part [music notes] those are the bombs falling.

Jeff Rosen: [00:09:27] What are the words, Hannibal? You write the words as well as the music. I've seen you compose and you channel those words and those music. What is, what is she singing?

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:09:35] What is this rain that falls from the sky? This rain that burns me until I die. O, Father, when will this fire come to its  end? When will the angels descend? To make this fire end? To save these dying men? To make their souls ascend? From this fire that has no end? Because the fire is still in Aleppo. It doesn't end, the fire doesn't end. And the fire in this sense it's ignorance and hatred. How it destroys so many lives, how it destroys, destroys us, you know? So that's why to see you is almost, it's too much because I, when I put the last note on the paper, I asked the creator to make sure that you could hear it. And I never thought to ask if I would be there to see it, but that's how the creator works. The creator's all knowing, you know, powerful.

Jeff Rosen: [00:10:54] Dr. Phúc, it is an extraordinary honor that the creator has sent you here to be here and to hear this work. And we're all so honored to have you. I would love you to tell your story and take us back to that terrible day in 1972, when you were a young, nine-year-old girl running down the street, what happened? What did you feel? And what happened afterwards?

Kim Phúc : [00:11:24] Thank you. First of all, I just want to thank you to all of you to be here. And thank you, listen to you listen to music. It just-- I don't know how to say, but the moment really touched me and I'm so thankful to be alive, to enjoy with all that happened in this moment. And now, I have to go back, to tell you that what happened to me at that time. Yes, I I remember my village at that time in June eight, 1972, we had been so, so peaceful. If nothing happened, even the people know about the Vietnam War, but the Vietnam War is happened far away from my place. And we enjoy  our childhood. We had everything that you have here. Okay. So, but it's in that June the enemies came to occupy in my village and as soon as my mom opened the door, and she knew the war came. We are in a dangerous place. So she tried to take all her family to hide, to move out of the house. And eventually we went to hide in the temple Cao Dai. And we thought that is a holy place, we'll be safe.

But you know, in the war time, no, where be saved. So, we hiding in the temple for three days with other villagers and South Vietnamese soldiers. They were there to protect it, to protect us. So as a children, we just allowed to play nearby the bomb shelter in those three days. So, the first two days that they dropped different kind of bomb, but then a third day in the morning, they started to drop the napalm, the bird. We didn't know the napalm name at that time, but did like the bomb, it burned. And I remember, after lunch, so we continued to play nearby the bomb shelter, then suddenly the Vietnamese soldiers, they saw the color mark was dropped inside of the temple area. That mean they estimated, the temple was going to be bomb.

So they started to yell for the children and then to run. Because of course, children always run faster in the outdoors. And so I was one of them. I remember when we run, myself running, in the front of the temple and about getting to the highway one, then I saw the airplane was so fast to us, two words: to us. And I saw the so loud and so close to me. And I have no idea. I just stood right there on highway one and I saw the airplane and I saw the fall bombs landing down like that. And then I heard the noise bup-bup, bup-bup. And then suddenly, the fire everywhere around me, just behind me. And that's why as soon as the bomb touch my clothes, my body, and it just burned off my clothes. And suddenly I saw the fire all over my left arm and I used my right hand. I did like that. Then at that moment, I remember my thought, Oh my goodness, I got burned and I will be ugly. And then people would see me different way, but I was so terrified then. So scared. Then I read then out of that fire and I saw my brothers.

And I saw my cousins and some soldiers, Vietnamese soldiers there, and we kept running and running and running on the road highway one, until I felt so tired to run anymore. Then I stopped. I saw many people right there on the road and I cried out too hot, too hot. And I remember one of the soldier gave me some water to drink and then he tried to help me. He poured a water over me, over my body. That moment I just lost consciousness. I didn't remember anything else that happened in that moment on that day. And when you mentioned about the raining, yes. At the lunchtime is raining. It's raining. Yeah. When we get out, the road still wet. Very wet. Yeah. It just amazing, how is together, the moment.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:17:38] You said you, you're not gonna make me cry.

Kim Phúc : [00:17:43] I try!

Jeff Rosen: [00:17:48] Hannibal, do you have any questions for Dr. Phúc about what happened?

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:17:52] The creator showed me everything, always does. Last night, when you were talking about when you were playing, there's a section in the piece too, where a young girls sings, because I saw you playing, you know, I saw you playing too, yeah.

Jeff Rosen: [00:18:19] We have much more to talk about what happened next, but we're going to stay with this moment, for a moment. And Mark Bowden, help us put this in context. Your book, Who 1968 notes that 1968 was a turning point in the war. And yet there was something about this photograph that's so galvanized the world that it contributed to the end of the war in a way that the battles had not, what was the significance of the photograph and how can you put it in context of those other battles?

Mark Bowden : [00:18:53] Well, you know, photos become iconic because they visually capture very complicated stories, sometimes. On an emotional level, as Hannibal has said. You know, that photograph, that particular part of the war. The United States had entered the war heavily in 1965. And I think there was a combination of idealism and arrogance, ignorance and arrogance. The idealism was a generation of young Americans were eager to fight the spread of communism as they saw this authoritarian menace spreading around the world. And I think with good intentions, many young Americans volunteered or went to Vietnam to fight. By 1968, when I, the book I wrote was about the battle of Huế, it was apparent that the war was not winnable and it was apparent not just to critical journalists or soldiers on the ground. It was apparent to the highest levels of the American government. If you read the Pentagon papers and if you read about the administration of Lyndon Johnson, the president himself had realized that the fight in Vietnam was not winnable.

In fact, Johnson opted not to seek re-election because he knew that he didn't want to be saddled with what was going to happen and dedicated himself in 1968, to try and end the war then. The war should have ended then, but instead Richard Nixon was elected promising to end the war, which is a very popular promise at that point. And instead, and this is why this photograph is so tremendously iconic, in a nutshell, the strategy of the war became to inflict as much pain on the Vietnamese people, you know, ostensibly on the enemy, but the enemy was embedded as we see in the population of Vietnam, in South Vietnam. So, a weapon like napalm which is an indiscriminate killer. There's no other way to describe it. It's gasoline mixed with aluminum soap, which turns it into a gel. You drop it and it sets on fire and it spreads fire everywhere. It kills indiscriminately. And so the image of a nine-year-old girl, running, terribly burned, from the bombing of a village. I mean, you, you put napalm on a village for only one reason to destroy everything and everyone in that village, that act, which ought to be a war crime, I think  the approach that the United States was taking toward the war in Vietnam. And it, like all the other approaches ultimately, failed. But I think that image, which was so viscerally powerful had deep meaning for many Americans and I think helped to change attitudes in the country toward the war.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:21:54] Do you think a war--it's possible to win a war? I've never heard of a war that was won except maybe one dealing with our own personal demons, our own personal pain, but I'm never in all of my studies of wars, I've never had the sense that one was ever won or that it was possible to win a war.

Mark Bowden : [00:22:16] Well, I do think wars can be won. Very often in the winning, they create bigger problems than the ones they tried to end, but certainly ending the Nazi regime and World War II was a very morally useful goal. Ending slavery in the United States was a moral crusade that is certainly a war worth fighting.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:22:41] Yeah. I don't feel that war has ended.

Mark Bowden : [00:22:43] Oh, no, of course not. It didn't end. Slavery ended, but racism, the systematic oppression of African-Americans and other minorities in this country continues to this day. And that's a big struggle for our country that began before we were even a nation. And we're continuing to fight that battle, but yes, some wars can be won and some wars are worth fighting. But in this case, I think it was apparent to everyone involved, and I spent a lot of time talking to Vietnamese soldiers, South Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, Vietcong, American soldiers, and it's very, very few of them at this point in their lives, look back on it and say, yes, we could have won this war. I don't believe that there was any victory in it. It was a terrible tragedy. And if the goal at that point in the war was to inflict pain, it did so, and in ways that we can only begin to imagine.

Jeff Rosen: [00:23:44] Hannibal, your pieces tell the story of people victimized by war in Alabama, in Vietnam and you also talk about the resurrection after the crusade.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:23:55] Yeah!

Jeff Rosen: [00:23:55] Yes, you do. And you also, this piece is going to be followed tomorrow night by another piece, first breath, last sigh: a journey called life, a composition in three veils. The first is dedicated to young Kevin who is with the Morgan state choir and he was gunned down in the streets of Baltimore. So, tell us about the relationship between Dr. Phúc's story and the story of Kevin that you wanted to tell in first breath, last sigh. And what about the resurrection that follows the crucifixion?

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:24:27] Well, our sister stated last night and we should hear it from her, but last night it was so powerful.  I was thinking about your words, what you said when they found you in the morgue and your mother walked until she found you.

And so what I learned was the creator gave your mother the power to find you in a morgue, in a tomb with the big rock covering it because the beast said you were dead, but God said you were alive.

Kim Phúc : [00:25:16] Yes! I'm still alive.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:25:20] I couldn't sleep from what you've taught us when you say that, because that analogy is so clear, you were crucified and resurrected. That thing doesn't apply to only 2000 years ago, in old Jaffa. It's every day of our lives, people are crucified and resurrected. That's what I came to understand in the morgue.

Kim Phúc : [00:25:50] In the morgue, yes.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:25:52] It's not what the beast say. The beast doesn't have the final word. And that's what gives me the strength to live or to have children, your beautiful children. Cause I know the beast doesn't have the last word, the creator said to the beast look, man, you leave, you can't play at this tempo. You don't know this song. You don't know the song of life. You can't say what this baby is gonna do. It's for me to say, man, that, that thing is--

Kim Phúc : [00:26:22] Thank you.

Jeff Rosen: [00:26:25] Dr. Phúc, tell us about the resurrection. What happened next? You met a wonderful man. You got married. You found Christianity and you devoted your life to helping kids who were the victims of war. Tell us about how that happened.

Kim Phúc : [00:26:43] I'll try. Wow, what I felt life, I have to tell you as a little girl, I didn't understand why that happened to me, but then now I look back. I said, wow. He looked down from above. He say to that little girl I'm not finished with you yet. So even people put you in the morgue, but that saved your life. So my mom found me there. Then everybody was there, they were expecting to take my body back to the village for burrial. Then, it happened, the miracle happened to me all and on and on and on. So ,I have to tell you that after that my mom found me in the morgue and then they was transferred me to another bad-skin burn clinic and I was there for 14 months and I went through 16 operations and that is a long time to be in the hospital. Then I went home, despite of all the circumstances, I was only one to get burned and survive.

I lost my two cousins. One is three years old and one at nine months and my aunt got burned a little bit on her leg and her arm. That's it. Then for me, it just really beginning of my life. I, my family lost almost everything then, but something in me, I had a dream because I was in a hospital for a long time and I have a dream to become a doctor and all doctors and nurses, they really would inspire me. Whenever I need, they were there to help me. So I say, when I growing up, I want to be a doctor so I can help another people just like me. Then 10 years later, I studied very hard to catch up with my friends. Then I got into medicine school in 1982 and wow! I was so happy. But unfortunately at that time, the same time, the Vietnamese government, they found me. I was that little girl in the famous picture. Yeah, she's still alive. And my story became hot news and there was so many journalists from different countries came to Vietnam and they wanted to interview me, filming me. Then unfortunately the government have to involve, then they interfere my school.

Yes, beginning I was so happy, but then there was so many times, and I couldn't go to school freely. Then eventually they cut short my study. That was a very low point in my life. And I really want to go to school to fulfill my dream, but now, I couldn't and then all kind of controlling, and I couldn't do anything with my, fulfill my dream. Those kind of tradgedy for me as a teenager. So they built me up with hatred, angry and bitterness at that time when I was 19. So I just have so many questions from myself. Why me? Why I didn't die when I was nine? Is much better, it seemed to me. And I, why I have to suffer now, not only physical, but mentally and emotionally?

And what can I do? And what did I do wrong? What I did wrong? And all kinds  of questiosn, why and why? I end up with the idea that I want to end my life because I thought after I die, I don't have to suffer that much. Even I was raised in the Cao Dai religion. I was really devoted in that religion to be good, to be you know, like, do good. And then I did hope that the good thing come into my life, but I didn't receive anything good as I wished, but suffering. Every mornin, I knew somebody controlling me and I couldn't go to school. I couldn't go on with that way anymore. So now I look back, it's something that in me, it was seeking the true, seeking the purpose, seeking for the answer then that I got that. So I use my daytime, I dig into the library in Saigon searching the purpose for my life. And I poured out all the religious books in the library reading and all among the book I had read, is the New Testament. And in the Bible, when I read, the more I read, the more questions I had, because I didn't understand why Jesus say like that. Why and why? Because I was raised in a totally different religion. And so at that moment, I was so confused when I read, when Jesus say, I am the way the true and the life, no man can come to father, but by me I say, wow, what! What goes through my religion or Jesus say like that, which was true? I was really confused, but that is a beginning.

So, on the process I just seeking and seeking at the end of December, 1982, when I heard the masses about Christmas, when Jesus came. That's why we celebrate Christmas. And this, yes, we're going right. This month is a Christmas. That is so wonderful. So the baby Jesus came and then he growing up and he died on the cross to pay for our sin. And if everybody, if anyone opened their heart to receive Jesus Christ as their personal savior, then Jesus will come to his heart and bringing peace and take away the burden. When I heard that messes deep down in my heart, I really, I needed that peace and I really needed somebody came to my life, to take away my burdens and my heart really touch. And that's why that moment I did went out and go in the front of the chair and I just opened my heart to accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior. That is a transformation and that faith is helped me a lot from that moment in Christmas, 1982, it's just an amazing turning point for me that I started to pray and through Jesus Christ and then the more I pray, the more peace I have, the more I pray.

I feel like, wow, now I know that when I die, heaven is my home and I pray for the wisdom. I pray for peace and I pray for forgiveness. Everything has come through my life. I had the, you know, I realize that after I became Christian, not only just the religion, but I have the relationship between me and God and Jesus. That is a relationship has helped me is healed me is just everything. Not about religion, but it is a relationship I have because I need it. That little girl really needed to have peace. And it doesn't matter what people say, people controlling me, people say something. I don't care because I cannot control what they doing, what they saying? Their opinion, but is I can control how I respond and it's helped me to move on from that point to this point. And I learned a lot and that is how I survived.

Jeff Rosen: [00:36:59] It's an extraordinary story. And that transformation has helped you to become one of the most important advocates for children and violence around the world. And I'm going to ask you more about that in a moment. Mark, I want to understand, what was it about this photograph in particular? There are three iconic photographs of Vietnam that we all know. There is Dr. Phúc's picture. There's the picture of the monk who is setting himself on fire in protest and there's that terrible picture of the execution of the Vietnamese prisoner. But it was this one that seemed to really turn the tide. What was it? And what about the timing? And how, specifically, did this photograph capture the imagination of American policymakers in ways that actually led to the end of the war?

Mark Bowden : [00:38:03] Well, there's no way that whatever your political persuasion or your ideas about the war went, a nine-year-old child is not the enemy. Any battle that burns terribly a nine-year-old child is failing on some level. And I documented this in the battle of Huế, where much like the people in your village. There were many people living in Huế, Vietnamese people who were not communists and also were not necessarily particularly supportive of the South Vietnamese regime. They were trying to survive. The city of Huế, the Northern part of the city is a fortress. So there were some 500,000 people living in a walled fortress that had only limited entrances and exits. And so it became impossible to flee this battle. And so they had on the one side North Vietnamese and Vietcong who had occupied the city who began to execute people who they labeled as supporters or collaborators with the South Vietnamese regime. And then on the other hand, you had the South Vietnamese army and the United States Marines eventually dropping napalm inside the Citadel walls. People dug bunkers under their homes and many died when bombs hit the structures of their houses. So you mean when you are obstensibly fighting for a cause and that cause is indiscriminately killing civilians, at some point, everyone, you know, steps back and says, this is wrong.

And that image of a nine year old girl struck by napalm, which as I said, is the sort of definition of an indiscriminate killer brought home the horror of what was going on in Vietnam to many, many people. And I think, you know, the public opinion had begun to turn against the war years earlier. And by 1972, I was in college then, I remember the moratorium marches where millions of people were turning out in this country to march against the war. So, you know, I do think images are extraordinarily powerful and the right image captures the horror of the moment. And also the reality of the moment.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:40:29] Makes me think of that image of Emmett Till which had the exact, exact same impact on the world. Young boy, disfigured by hatred and violences. Photographs of powerful--

Mark Bowden : [00:40:47] Young boy who was beaten to death by racists. And where was it--

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:40:52] The Klan in Mississippi--

Mark Bowden : [00:40:53] In Mississippi. And they, the African-American press, took a picture with the mother's permission of Emmett Till in his coffin, because as she said, she wanted the world to see what they had done to her child.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:41:09] You know, that I think it's Thich Nhat Hanh, the great poet, explained to Dr. King, why the monks were setting themselves on fire. And after they met this, when Dr. King made his statement against the war. He had been contemplating making his statement against the war. He knew that that would cause him to no longer have access to Johnson. But when Thich Nhat Hanh explained to him why the marks were setting themselves on fire, the sacrifice that it was, that's when he made the statement. And of course that's when he lost his 24/7 contact with the president.

Mark Bowden : [00:41:58] And that was tremendously influential, too. When we talk about the American public opinion, turning against the war in Vietnam, Dr. Martin Luther King's opposition, which if you read the statement that he gave against the war is one of the most eloquent speeches that he ever gave, and he gave a lot of very elegant speeches. I think really had a tremendous influence.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:42:19] I miss him. I think about him all the time.

Jeff Rosen: [00:42:25] Hannibal, so much of your art is about crucifixion and resurrection. The Alabama church bombings, those kids in the streets of Baltimore, your latest work, that incredibly powerful chorus that you performed with the Philadelphia orchestra last year, pow, pow, pow, just all those kids being gunned down. Do you choose your subjects based on photographs or some other way? And what do you view as the relationship between the crucifixion and the resurrection?

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:43:04] Well, believe it or not, I wish the creator would give me a break. I, you know, some of my greatest moments of joy with my wife and my grandchildren when we ride in the forest and everything. But when I, you know, when you see something that's not right, man, as a human being, you've got to speak on it. I think we are obligated as human beings to make sure that all humans are well and whole, whatever we do. If I, if I our occupation is writing or sweeping street or cooking food or teaching our babies, we have an obligation. How could I say I'm a human being and I see you suffer like that and I'm not using my tool to address that because that will, that hopefully will prevent others from suffering like that. You know? We are obligated to each other, whether you believe it or not. One land, one river, one people. And until we learn that we will never, we will never understand that adage, that of on earth as it is in heaven. I was in heaven last night, too. You know, you're heaven, you're in heaven right here. Your words are heaven for me.

So, I just follow orders and sometimes, sometimes I, when I know they're from the creator is usually things I don't want to do. And usually I have to face my monsters, which is not easy. I have to face my own. I have to face my own. The creator never gives you something easy. Just like you were, you had to fight, you had to fight that you had to fight all of that and still do. I mean, because the scars on you physically, but the deeper ones are in the soul. Am I right?

Kim Phúc : [00:45:11] Yes.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:45:12] Yeah. My, you know, I was attacked with my trumpet when the schools integrated walking into the white school. And I was thinking about how to play tenderly with virbrato so that I could play it for my mother. That was her favorite song. These five white men descended on me, "eh what are you doing up in the white part of town, boy?" I had a brand new trumpet. They beat me, dislocated my collarbone, scratched my face, my lips bleeding, everything, but I didn't mind because I figured it out how to play tenderly with vibrato. And that was my mother's Christmas present [music notes]. So I forgot the beating.

Jeff Rosen: [00:46:03] Dr. Phúc, as you've inspired kids, children, the victims of violence around the world from war. Sometimes you've showed them the photograph and it's given them hope. Tell us about that. And how do you minister to these kids to help them overcome their pain?

Kim Phúc : [00:46:21] Yeah, I am so thankful that I still being alive and I have a great opportunity to contact with all, most of the children who are suffering just like me. They have no hope, physical pain, and no future. Nobody take care of them. So when I met them, it's a really, I relate with them with the pain, physical and emotional, and seem like they have no hope. And I gave them my picture. I say, yes, I was that little girl. I was burned. I had no hope. I had lost my loved one. It's just like you, part of you. So, but here I am, I still alive. And I have hope. I believe that God loves you too, because God loved me. And he gave me great opportunity to To be alive and to learn a lot. And now I have a capacity to travel here to help you. And I really want you to see that little girl that like you, right now, but in the future, you have to look like me now.

And it's just in the past, but it's the past is in the future, present and the future. And I believe that if you just keep going, don't give up hope. Neve! And you have to help yourself and let people help you, let God help you. And he will bring the right people in your life and you have to work together. And then if, when we go together that we have a really successful life, just like me, I, before that I have no idea who can help me. And I had no hope at all, but now you can see that my heart is healed and I have a time come in and I can help you. That is a great thing every time. And I can see the life changing. And as a even one girl or one boy that is make me happy, make my life is meaningful. That I, that mean like, wow, you survive and you suffer. And not to like for nothing, it's for reason right now, your life just dedicated to work for peace and helping children. And that is make a difference, and that is my purpose. And so when, you know, when you talking about the pain for example, I give you one example. When I was in Uganda, it's just really, really hard for me to get into the burn unit because that kind of burn that will bring me back in my childhood 14 months in the hospital, in the burn unit. I don't want to relive that again, it's so painful then, but I pray God, please help me.

I have to be strong to get in. Maybe someone needs my help. I can do something to help people here. Yes, I got into, I met the lady. She just really got burned so badly and she didn't want to live anymore. Stop eating and drinking and never smile. Even the nurse was there just almost surrender. And then I got in and I show her my picture as a little girl burning and I show her my scars and I talking with her and prayed with her. She seemed like she not respond anything. she just give up. Then, when I I know the time, 10 minutes, and then I, after I pray with her, and then I left, you know what happened? The nurse called me and say, wow, thank you so much for sharing your life with her, just 10 minutes after to talking with you, she stood up and she's smiling and she eating and drinking. And that is the whole world, you know! It has changed her  life. And I'm so thankful for that.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [00:51:37] I was given an assignment because I met so many people who went to the war, including the leader of the band that I had in high school. He went and he was never the same when he came back and I never met someone who went to that war who was the same. And I felt bad that I couldn't help them. But then I realized that the only person that could help someone who has offended someone is the person offended. So that's why tomorrow night you'll get to meet with some veterans and hopefully to heal them.

Jeff Rosen: [00:52:29] And is it right that you met with one of the airmen who was responsible for the bombing and you offered your forgiveness?

Kim Phúc : [00:52:37] Yes. I learned to forgive sins, I became Christian. And, you know, first my heart is healed. And the real test that is, I had been, my heart has been changed, when I met the jump planner. He's not the pilot who dropped the bomb, but he was  coordinating the air srike. Right. And then I'm so thankful that we've met each other in 1996 and he asking me, do you forgive me? Do you forgive me? And I'm so thankful at that moment. I was able to say, yes, I do. That's why I'm here. We met each other in Washington DC. And so he say to me, I never forget the words that he say, please look at my eyes, so you can see the sorrow that I carry on for 24 years. And we hug each  other and we impress each other and we cry and I say, yes, I am so thankful that God healed my heart. And I learned to forgive and just be friends. And I'm so glad that I come. And then at that moment, the police came and they separated us and I say, okay, I would like to see you later. Then, after that we met each other three hours later, we met in the hotel. Wow. Just the momentum that, I never forget it, when we talk about his point of view and mine, and both of us have the same feeling.

He say that, I feel like I lost my sister for a long time. Now, I see her. And the same thing from me. I say, I lost my brother for a long time. Now, we met each other. It just amazing that moment. And so we became, not only just I forgive him, but then we still keep in touch and be best friends. We love each other. We pray for each other. And for me, it's not just something, it's just amazing, so beautiful that we come together and we forgive. And it's really relief for both of us. And this is a really reconciliation and I am so thankful that God healed my heart and I'm ready for that. And for me in my book, fire road, I just write it now that even now day, today, I continue to pray for the pilot who dropped the bomb every single day in my life. If he die, because a long time ago, 47 years already, that happened in that day. So if he die, I cannot say anything. But if he's still alive, deep down in my heart one day, it's my dream, I want to see him, I want to give him a hug. And I would tell him that that little girl, she loved you. She forgive you. In person, not with any kind of social media, nothing, because I understand how hard, how difficult for the pilot who did that and that the picture is because it's cost that he dropped the bomb. And so that is who will be so tough for him. And I just, that is my dream from that little girl.

Jeff Rosen: [00:57:09] We have a resolution from the city of Philadelphia, which has been written in your honor, and it will be read by a representative of the Painted Bride Arts Center, which is going to be presenting the performance tomorrow night, along with the Philadelphia Episcopal cathedral. And we'll hear that resolutio, and then perhaps Hannibal and his colleagues will be moved to play a little more music to send us into this blessed afternoon.

Rep for Painted Bride Art Center: [00:57:43] On behalf of the city of Philadelphia, we'd like to recognize and celebrate the life and extraordinary contributions of peace activist, Dr. Kim Phúc.

Kim Phúc : [00:57:52] Oh, Thank you. Thank you.

Rep for Painted Bride Art Center: [00:58:01] The council of the city of Philadelphia is pleased to honor the life and contributions of Dr. Phúc, after witnessing the horrors of the Vietnam War first-hand and having the most tragic and distressing moment of our life documented and circulated across the globe. She rose from the ashes and managed to not only survive under these circumstances, but also thrive and forgive those most responsible for her suffering. Whereas despite facing many struggles in our life, Kim Phúc never lost hope. She took all of the strife that life handed her and used the well-known image and platform to promote peace and give back in any way she could. The Kim Foundation iInternational was created in her name to help fund programs responsible for assisting children in war torn regions of the world. And whereas on December 7th, Hannibal Lokumbe, children of the fire, a ceremony in honor of Dr. Kim Phúc will be performed at the Philadelphia Episcopal church who couldn't be wrote this piece after witnessing the televised news segment of Kim Phúc's image and story. He was dismayed by what he saw and immediately felt the need to express his sentiments through his music, through his music, and these Philadelphia based organizations and the city council itself strive to honor Dr. Kim Phúc for her contributions, selflessness, and hope after experiencing the heartbreaking horrors of war. Her image and legacy will continue to echo through history as a warning of the damages of war and conflict on civilian populations. Therefore, by virtue of this citation, the council of the city of Philadelphia here by recognizes and celebrates the life in extraordinary contributions, a peace activist, Dr. Kim Phúc.

Kim Phúc : [00:59:49] Thank you. Thank you so much. Bless you.

Hannibal Lokumbe : [01:01:14] Pretty Deep! [music]

Jackie McDermott: [01:04:02] This episode was produced by me, Jackie McDermott, along with Tanaya Tauber and Lana Ulrich. It was engineered by Greg Scheckler. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts or follow us on Spotify and join us back here next week.

On behalf of the National Constitution Center, I'm Jackie McDermott.

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