Live at the National Constitution Center

Hillary and Chelsea Clinton on Gutsy Women

October 15, 2019

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Secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton and Chelsea Clinton visited the National Constitution Center last week to unveil their new book The Book of Gutsy Women: Favorite Stories of Courage and Resilience. They shared stories of the gutsy women profiled in their book – some close to them, including Chelsea’s grandmothers; some historic figures like Claudette Colvin and Frances Perkins; and some modern day trailblazers like Greta Thurnberg, Abby Wombach, and the students of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. They also detailed the groundbreaking work done by these women in areas including equal pay, the Equal Rights Amendment, athletics, gun policy reform, and more. Sec. Clinton also explains why she thinks we are in a constitutional crisis and shares her thoughts on the current impeachment inquiry. The conversation, moderated by MSNBC correspondent Joy-Ann Reid with introductory remarks by NCC President Jeff Rosen, was held before a sold-out audience at the NCC.

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PARTICIPANTS

Sec. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the first woman in U.S. history to become the presidential nominee of a major political party. She served as the 67th Secretary of State after nearly four decades in public service advocating on behalf of children and families as an attorney, First Lady, and U.S. Senator from New York.  She was awarded the National Constitution Center’s 2013 Liberty Medal in recognition of her lifelong career in public service and ongoing advocacy on behalf of women and girls around the globe.

Chelsea Clinton is a champion for girls and women through her advocacy, writing, and work at the Clinton Foundation. She is also an adjunct assistant professor at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health.

​​​​​​Jeffrey Rosen is the President and Chief Executive Officer of the National Constitution Center, the only institution in America chartered by Congress “to disseminate information about the United States Constitution on a nonpartisan basis.” 


Additional Resources


This episode was engineered by Dave Stotz and Greg Scheckler, and produced by Tanaya Tauber, Jackie McDermott, and the Town Hall and Events teams of the National Constitution Center. Research was provided by the Constitutional Content Team.

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TRANSCRIPT

This transcript may not be in its final form, accuracy may vary, and it may be updated or revised in the future.

Tanaya Tauber: [00:00:00] Welcome to Live in America's Town Hall. Live constitutional conversations held here at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia and across America. I'm Tanaya Tauber, director of town hall programs. Last week, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Chelsea Clinton visited the National Constitution Center to discuss their new book, The Book of Gutsy Women: Favorite Stories of Courage and Resilience. They shared stories of the gutsy women featured in the book and also explored how some of those women have shaped the constitution. The conversation moderated by MSNBC correspondent Joy-Ann Reid who's held before a sold out audience at the National Constitution Center. First you'll hear an introduction from NCC President Jeff Rosen. Here's Jeff.

Jeffrey Rosen: [00:00:47] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the National Constitution Center. I am Jeffrey Rosen, the president of this wonderful institution, which is the only institution in America chartered by Congress to increase awareness and understanding of the constitution among the American people, beautifully said. And we are so thrilled to welcome back to Philadelphia, Chelsea Clinton and secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton. Wow, Secretary Clinton, you're back there and you can, you can't see this, but you're getting a standing ovation even before you've come out [laughs].

Secretary Clinton is a great friend of Philadelphia and of the National Constitution Center and she was last here, uh, in 2013 to receive the Constitution Center's Liberty Medal and it is wonderful to have her back. I need to quickly tell you about the great book events we have coming up here in the next couple weeks. We have Rick Stengel, a former head of the Constitution Center talking about his new book, Info Wars. We have Eric Foner, the great historian coming to talk about his new book called the Second Founding. And I will be back here with Dahlia Lithwick to discuss my new book, Conversations With RBG: Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg on Life, Liberty, and Law. And now it is my great pleasure to introduce our moderator for tonight who will introduce our guests of honor, please join me in welcoming from MSNBC, Joy-Ann Reid. You that mic and it is and it is a long one [laughs].

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:03:10] Thank you very much. All right. Okay. Hello everyone? There're a lot of you. Wow. Let me try not to fall on my way up here. Okay. I think this is my chair, I believe. All right. Let me sit, huh. How's everyone doing? Excellent, excellent. Well, I am thrilled to be here in Philadelphia with all of you for a conversation with Hillary Clinton and Chelsea Clinton about their newest project, The Book of Gutsy Women: Favorite Stories of Courage and Resilience, that deserves a hand clap.

So this is the first book um, that Hillary and Chelsea Clinton have done uh, together. And what I love about it is it's a celebration of women and courage. And we know that uh, women and courage go together very well, particularly in this era. We're finding that out every day are we not?

And what I love about it is it's telling the stories of women you know, some you know, and some that you may not know. And it's telling about their stories, really of survival, of cha- of meeting challenges and beating them. Um, and it also has a lot of personal aspects to it. A lot of personal reflections, um, from both, um, secretary Clinton and from Chelsea Clinton about themselves, about people they know. Some of these are women that they know well, but also in all the way from history. And it brings together these two generations of women, uh, each of whom are very accomplished and brilliant.

And it gives you sort of their take together on the accomplishments of all of these great women. So let me tell you a little bit about, uh, our two guests here who you know very well, that's why you're all here [laughs]. Chelsea Clinton is a champion for girls and women through her advocacy, her writing and her work with the Clinton Foundation. She's also an adjunct assistant professor at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health. And she lives in New York city with her husband, their children, and their dog. And she also has an exceptional Twitter account. I was just complimenting on her on that [laughs].

Hillary Rodham Clinton is the first woman in us history to become a major party's presidential nominee. She also served as secretary of state after nearly four decades in public service, advocating on behalf of kids and families as an attorney, as first lady, and as a United States Senator from New York. She's also a wife, mother and proud grandmother. And with that, I would like to welcome to the Sage, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Chelsea Clinton.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:06:16] Hello.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:06:19] So this is exciting.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:06:21] It's exciting for us.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:06:22] [inaudible 00:06:22] exciting.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:06:23] It's always-

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:06:23] It's very exciting-

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:06:24] ... great to be in Philadelphia at the Constitution Centers so thank you.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:06:27] Absolutely. And- and the, congratulations first of all on the book.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:06:31] Thank you.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:06:31] Thank you.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:06:32] It's phenomenal and- and it's a great read. Um, and it's- it's sort of a way of getting to know the two of you as a relationship, right. As a mother and daughter. Uh, so I wanna start by talking to you. I mentioned to you guys backstage, I've done a collaboration before. It's not easy, you know, to bring two strong minds together to write one book. So I wanna ask each of you, what was it like collaborating with Chelsea?

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:06:53] For me, it was incredibly, um, satisfying. Uh, it was a little frustrating from time to time because we had to agree on the women that we chose. And we started off with endless lists of, uh, women we admired and then we kept cutting it back. But we wrote over 200 essays and 103 are in the book. So we had to keep working on why we chose the women we did. Um, and we had some really vigorous discussions that will, you know, maybe get into later. But all in all, it was really a great experience for me. I think Chelsea has a slightly different take [laughs]. I- I don't wanna, I don't wanna, you know, spoil what she might say, but I know that initially the collaboration was a little bit challenging, right?

Chelsea Clinton: [00:07:49] Well, [laughs] um, you know, I also just wanna echo our gratitude to the National Constitution Center for welcoming us so warmly uh, today. And it is always a particular uh, privilege for me to be in Philadelphia 'cause this is where my husband grew up and my mother-in-law is here tonight, so, oh yeah, please. Absolutely. Um, so really it's just, um, uh, an honor to be here, but also just such a- a personal privilege.

Um, so to pick up on where my mother left off, uh, it was a real joy uh, to work together, um, in many respects because, uh, we were able to revisit um, and I was able to kind of excavate some of my kind of most treasured memories from childhood of my mother talking to me about, uh, the women who had really kind of galvanized and- and motivated her as a little girl. And I remembered hearing those stories as a kid, whether it was kind of Nancy Drew or her sixth grade teacher and then the women that she really came to admire as she got older, particularly Shirley Chisholm and Geraldine Ferraro who I remember her taking me to see when I was four years old and she came to Arkansas.

And yet there're also were some challenging aspects to our collaboration. Um, not only did we each have to kind of vigorously kinda go to the mat for the women we felt like had to be included as our editor continued to tell us that no, we couldn't have a book that weighed eight pounds [laughs], which is what I think it would have been had we, had every woman we wanted to initially. Um, but also because we have very different working styles. Uh, so I type on a computer, like I- I write on a computer, I may outline still like pen to paper, but I write on a computer, I edit on a computer. Um, my mother writes longhand [laughs]. And while I knew this, I didn't quite understand what that would mean for our collaboration together. So what that meant is you know, I would like send attachments of my most recent essays to her and she would take photographs [laughs] and text them to me of like, you know, whatever essay she just finished.

Thankfully she has pretty legible handwriting, but it made it hard to then kind of go back and forth with like different suggested edits or ideas or kind of where I wanted to add in my voice. And I kept saying to her, like, Google docs are your friends [laughs]. Like, you know, or we can just work like in comment boxes and track changes. Like I'll show you, we can, we have different colors. Like it's very easy to follow the lines of logic and editing. And she just kept saying like, this has worked for me. So after about a month of like continuing to kind of plea and try to persuade, um, maybe even a little bit of like loving guilt tripping, I just realized like none of it was working. And um, I had to accept that we had very different writing styles, but hopefully kinda could still merge them together even if one started kinda longhand and one started on a computer.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:11:00] Yeah.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:11:00] O- o- okay [laughs]. I- I- I have to say, in my defense, you know, who else writes longhand?

Chelsea Clinton: [00:11:09] She says this every, she said this to me literally like every day that we are working together.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:11:12] Barack Obama writes his books long hand [laughs].

Chelsea Clinton: [00:11:16] Every day, Every day-

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:11:17] I rest my case.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:11:17] ... he was like, "You know what, like president Obama does it too." And I was like, "You know what? Like I bet Sasha and Malia wish he didn't as well." [laughs] So I mean, you know.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:11:27] [inaudible 00:11:28], okay, well the book, it definitely reads like a conversation. Because, so the great thing about it um, for those of you who are obviously all here and gonna read the book, is that you sort of are conversing back and forth, either writing an essay, but then having a bit of you and a bit of you, you're- you're sort of mixing together. But you start off with, I wanna start off your, with your first impressions in the book, which is really uh, one of the most poignant parts of it. You start out writing about Dorothy Rodham, grandma Dorothy and Virginia Kelly, grandma Ginger. Talk a little bit about these two phenomenal women who mean so much, obviously to both of you.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:12:04] Well, when we started this conversation about, um, our different experiences, uh, growing up, because when I was growing up, when I was a young girl, um, the only women I knew who worked outside the home were my teachers and the public school librarians. And Chelsea had a very different experience. Uh, so we talked about the people we knew closely in our families who influenced us, uh, who we admired, who we thought were gutsy. And then of course, people that we encountered including fictional, uh, as well as historical and contemporary, uh, women.

And I think it's fair to say that, um, you know, my mother and Bill's mother w- were two of the gutsiest women that I've ever known. And, uh, certainly for Chelsea having those two women as her grandmothers, uh, was, uh, i- incredibly, uh, formative. Um, she had my mother until she was an adult, so she could really develop, uh, an- an a relationship with her. Uh, and, um, sadly Bill's mother died, um, when she was just 12. So we talked a lot about that and we thought, "Oh, really, we need to start with those two women." Do you wanna add to that?

Chelsea Clinton: [00:13:25] So I- I mean, I am so grateful to my grandmother's, um, and as my mom said, my grandma Dorothy um, was a huge part of my life and still very much remained so. Like I think about her every day probably because in the last years of her life I spoke to her every day and she's still really remains my North star. I often think like, what would she advise me to do, kinda what would she think would be the right thing to do in this moment. Um, one of the gifts that both my grandmothers gave me though was kinda the expectation of, um, having an opinion and standing up for myself. And I- I felt that so clearly when my grandma, Ginger asked me what I wanted for my eighth birthday and I told her I wanted her to quit smoking and she did [laughs]. And she'd smoked two packs of cigarettes for decades.

But I think she was so impressed that I had the gumption to ask for that. Um, and that she had been taught, she loved the word gumption and she'd been talking to me a lot about like, why it was so important that girls have gumption that she thought, well, heck, like I better follow through on this and just what a gift that she gave me. Um, and I'm so grateful 'cause it certainly after she got breast cancer probably helped her live a little bit longer. Um, because her lungs by that point had- had really largely recovered. So I am so thankful to both my grandmothers. And, uh, Joy, we couldn't have written this book and not included them.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:14:53] But Joy, we also want people to think about the gutsy women in their lives because every person here knows at least one, probably more than one, or are yourselves. And starting from the personal and then going, uh, to the historical, um, was a way of us we hoped igniting a conversation about that.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:15:14] Yeah.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:15:14] A- and, you know, gutsy women, um, almost always get a great deal of opposition. Um, there is still, you know, even in the 21st century, it feels like there's this great social prohibition to women um, stepping forward, seeking power, um, to women exercising their power. I think about what the speaker of the house currently goes through the pushback and you wonder if she would get the same pushback if she were a man, right? You wondered all the time. You wrote about a young woman who's experiencing that and she is still a child. Um, and her name is Greta Thunberg and I love that you included her here.

This is actually one of my favorite essays in the book. Talk a little bit about- about not only standing up for yourself, but as a young woman who's fighting for something huge and important and doing that despite the fact that people are, I mean, the viciousness of the attacks against her have been something, I mean, you can probably res- uh, resonate with that-

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:16:06] Yeah, had a little idea with that [crosstalk 00:16:08].

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:16:07] ... a little bit [laughs].

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:16:10] And so do you, I know.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:16:11] A little bit [laughs].

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:16:11] Um, we included, uh, Greta in the book, um, before she sailed across the ocean and spoke at the UN because we were both so impressed with her lonely campaign to raise awareness about what needs to be done, uh, to try to stop the effects of climate change, frankly, before it's too late for many parts of the world. You know, she started off, uh, going to her, uh, going on her own to the, uh, government buildings and, uh, Stockholm and she was literally by herself and nobody joined her. And then eventually a couple of kids joined her. And- and then as we know, it led to a, uh, a global uh, effort to raise awareness about climate change that enlisted millions of young people.

There were several things that, uh, I think we both we're drawn to when it came to including Greta. First that she was just unapologetically a 16-year-old girl. She didn't pretend to be anybody else but herself. And she very quickly told people that she was autistic. She had, um, a form of, uh, autism on the Asperger's uh, spectrum and she owned up to it. And she was, again, fearless and unapologetic. And then as we watched her uh, be willing to put herself out there to speak truth to power and engender wild support, great adulation from those who saw what she was trying to do and believed in her. And then the most negative vicious attacks on her girlhood, on her autism, on how she spoke and everything else that the other side could think of to try to diminish her uh, it just made us even more proud that we'd included her. But I- I think that for both of us, she was a, uh, a real example of what young women are doing around the world on a lot of important issues.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:18:26] Yeah. And also the need to stand up for facts and science. Um, and that she just is so kind of consistently and persistently clear that she's not voicing her opinions, you know, she is amplifying and elevating and have what the overwhelming majority of scientists are telling us about climate change and kind of what they are kind of urging and exhorting us to do what we must must do. And we're just, since kind of we're here tonight, I wanna um, mention, uh, Toni Pergolin and Judi London who are from Bancroft, um, because one of the women that we write about in the book is Margaret Bancroft to kind of in the [inaudible 00:19:15] late mid 19th century when she was a teacher, um, here in- in Pennsylvania, believed that every child deserved the right to an education and that every child could learn.

And that was not the prevailing view at the time. And when she said she wanted to start kind of her own school to be able to kind of bring that philosophy into the world, that regardless of ability, every child could learn, you know, she was also really derided and denigrated and told like, why would she bother? Like why would she bother with these kids? And she just was dogged and determined. And the school and organization that she started, um, still exists today. And among its many kind of achievements is one of the largest sources of American special Olympians, I think it's pretty fantastic.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:20:07] That's wonderful.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:20:07] So one of the things I enjoyed the most about the book is it's sort of a catalog of a lot of, you know, my heroines, you know, Shirley Chisholm probably being even growing up like the biggest heroin in my household, she's [inaudible 00:20:20]. My mom was a bit, a bit biased. Um, Mae Jemison, like people like that. But I love the fact that you also in some parts of the book combine someone known with some, with pe- someone who is less known, people should know Claudette Colvin, but people tend not to-

Chelsea Clinton: [00:20:34] Oh.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:20:34] ... and they tend to, you know, know Rosa Parks. Everybody knows who Rosa Parks is. She decided she didn't want to sit in the back of the bus, but the fact that Claudette Colvin was a- another teenager who did it first, I loved that you all included her.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:20:46] So I think that Claudette Colvin is one of the great heroes in American history that we don't talk about. And she is someone that I think every, everyone should learn about in school. And I'm so thankful to my eighth grade history teacher in Little Rock, Arkansas, uh, at Horace Mann Junior High School for teaching me about Claudette Colvin. Because as Joy said, nine months before Rosa Parks, Claudette stayed seated on the bus, she was on her way home from school and a white woman got on the bus and told her she had to get up and she refused to get up. And then she later said, she felt like she had Harriet Tubman on one shoulder and Sojourner Truth in the o- other shoulder just holding her down in her seat. And she just knew that she couldn't get up. She was arrested. She was dragged off of the bus. Uh, she was horrifically treated while she was in jail.

Her father and the local pastor, um, had to plea and work and raise money to help get her out of jail. She gets out of jail, have people tell her she needs to be quiet and she just says no. And so she became one of the original plaintiffs, one of the five original plaintiffs in Browder v. Gayle, which was the ruling, um, ultimately, uh, by a district court upheld by the Supreme court that said, no, like bus segregation is illegal. It's illegal in Montgomery and it's illegal in the state of Alabama. And so while we know Rosa Parks his name really justly, we should know Claudette too. She was 15 and her story is part of what propelled finally desegregating public transportation in Alabama.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:22:24] Yeah, and there's a clap. You- you include some of the people that a- that are some of my fa- have becomes some of my favorite people, the young women um, of the Parkland students who are so brave. Um, and who came forward and became the face of really probably the most successful, I think to date gun reform movement really since 1994 when there was an assault weapons ban actually somehow passed the Congress. D- w- when you look at this kind of advocacy, particularly since you've spent so much time in public policy, people tend not to think that there won't be anything actually done. These kids don't believe that.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:23:03] Right, right. Well, um, the gun violence, uh, is a huge issue, uh, for both Chelsea and me. And we wrote about two groups of women and I'll speak about the older generation and Chelsea, will speak about the younger, which is totally appropriate, I think. Um, and as- as Joy said, one of the characteristics of all these women in our book, despite whatever obstacles they faced or how badly they were treated, is optimism. They really believe that something will change and that they're going to play a role in making sure that it does. So we highlight women who've been involved in the, uh, gun uh, violence prevention uh, efforts for quite some time.

Uh, women like Sarah Brady, whose husband James was, uh, so severely wounded when there was the assassination attempt against president Reagan paralyzed in a wheelchair. Sarah Brady became the voice of uh, gun reform and she uh, really was instrumental in getting the Brady bill passed, which also passed in 1994 that, um, my husband signed. And it has kept, you know, something like two and a half million people from getting guns who shouldn't just imagine that because they'd been stopped at that process or Gabby Giffords, who was this, herself the victim of an assassination attempt. And after being so profoundly wounded and working so hard to come back through physical therapy and speech therapy, she and her wonderful husband, Mark Kelly have been leading the charge for sensible gun uh, legislation. And- and Nelba Márquez-Greene, whose little girl was murdered at Sandy Hook and who talks about the burdens and the pain that, uh, family members, uh, feel.

And Lucy McBath, whose son Jordan, was killed, uh, for playing music too loud in his car. And the man did go to prison, thankfully. Uh, but Lucy, despite being devastated by th- the terrible murder of her son, said she had to do something and she became a- a gun prevention activist. And now she's a member of Congress. So we- we try to talk about, you know, women, uh, who have been on the front lines and have often taken their own tragedies and tried to convince people that something had to be done. But this group of young people like, uh, what Joy was uh, talking about, are really a new phenomenon. They- they came out of Parkland they came out of other, uh, gun related tragedies and they are absolutely determined that it's going to be a voting issue and that people are going to get the changes that they are seeking to try to save lives.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:26:00] And you, we highlight um, six young women activists. Um, because while I think so much attention has kind of been focused on the Parkland students and on- on immigrants all is, um, you know, what I think has been really remarkable about the Parkland students is how they have, from the beginning of dealing with this horrific tragedy that affected all of them, understood that they were not the only ones who were affected. And they really have not only shared the spotlight, but given their platform to others who are working on different aspects of our kinda gun violence epidemic in our country. And so and we write about Naomi Wadler, whose mother had gone to high school with Fred Gutenberg, whose daughter was murdered at- at Parkland, and kind of as Naomi was un- learning about this horror and how it affected her family, she felt like she had to do something.

So at 11 years old, you know, she started her own school strike of kind of kids walking out, to kind of protesting gun violence. And then she spoke at kind of March for Our Lives about the need to really understand uh, in so many instances, it's black girls who suffer the highest rates of gun violence in our country. And we also write about uh, Jazmine Wildcat, who has really taken on kind of the challenges of gun violence, uh, not only in her own native American community, but in other native American communities. You know, we write about Julia Sporre, who my mother and I met a few days ago in Washington, DC, uh, whose father died by suicide and, uh, with a gun.

And you know, she and her mother had kind of worked to raise awareness of the suicide epidemic in our country. And then after uh, the tragedy in Parkland, she felt like she had to do more and she started students demand action, which now has more than 40,000 members. So just kind of these young women Joy who are not only kind of determined to change the status quo are racing ahead and supporting each other to do so kind of at every level of government with every opportunity. And I just am in awe of them and particularly as a mother, incredibly grateful to them.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:28:18] Yeah, absolutely. Well, speaking of women who made history, you do write about Frances Perkins, who is the reason we have social security [laughs]. Um, we can give that a ha- we do love social security, right? We can give that ha- um, and you write about women, you know, from this era when women were not supposed to be part of government, were not supposed to making decisions. Um, so I'm gonna set that aside. And what I'd love for you to talk about Frances Perkins and why, um, she and you've read about Eleanor Roosevelt, who I know is your idol. Um, we're here in the National Constitution Center.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:28:47] Mm-hmm [affirmative], Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:28:48] So I wanna ask you, as somebody who is an attorney, as somebody who was an attorney on that uh, commission that looked at Richard Nixon's potential crimes and what needed to be done with him, um, whether or not, you know, the idea of gutsy women, right, is that you're standing up to power and you're standing up for the people who are in need, which is what Mrs. Perkins managed to do. I wonder if you see the same kind of potential and resiliency to overcome what really feels to a lot of people, I think like a constitutional crisis right now. And if so, who is it? Who do you see out there now that has the strength to stand up really for the constitution um, given the state of affairs in 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:29:28] Well, how appropriate that we would talk about a constitutional crisis, um, such as the one we are in, uh, right here at the Constitution Center and I wanna thank Jeffrey Rosen uh, for his leadership and for what this center really means. It's a living, breathing reminder uh, of how the constitution was created and how we have not only tried to, um, change it in ways that furthered the underlying ideals of our country, but also tried to understand what it is our founders were teaching us. Uh, when we, uh, look at it and there is a reason there is a section on impeachment in the constitution. And as Joy said, I had the rather unusual experience of being on the impeachment inquiry staff back in 1974 investigating Richard Nixon.

And one of my, uh, one of my assignments as a young lawyer was to write, um, the memo that was later published with a few other of my uh, colleagues about what is a high crime and misdemeanor. And clearly the founders said to themselves, "Look, we're gonna have elections and that will represent, we hope the will of the people. But in between elections, if we have a leader who is abusing power, obstructing justice, um, treating the rest of the government with contempt, um, we have to have a remedy." And so impeachment rooted in a sort of Anglo-Saxon law going back, uh, to the English became the remedy that the founders put into our constitution. Now why is that important? Because if you go back and you read uh, some of the early debates and some of the writings around the constitution, what was one thing they were particularly worried about? They were worried about foreign interference in the government.

They were worried that foreign powers would try to subvert the government of the United States through influencing, uh, elected leaders or appointed leaders. It- it was a- a very real concern uh, to our founders. And so we are now, um, at the point where we have an impeachment inquiry beginning, uh, evidence is being presented and being evaluated. Uh, and then the- the house will have to make a decision as to whether or not, uh, there uh, is enough evidence to support articles of impeachment. Uh, personally I think that there is a really good case that there is enough evidence to support articles of impeachment.

So, um, a- and I think it's, I think it's really important as Joy was asking to look at the people who are now on the leading edge of this momentous historic moment. And the person who's furthest out is the speaker, Nancy Pelosi, who is a very gutsy woman and- and she has- has really tried very hard to, uh, handle this and an, and with the seriousness and deliberativeness that it uh, requires. But what is particularly missing are any people in the opposite party who are speaking up, because back in 1974, Republican members of the house of representatives who served on the judiciary committee voted for the articles of impeachment.

Republican senators after the house judiciary committee vote, went to see Richard Nixon and said, you should resign for the good of the country. They put country over party. We write about a woman who does that in our book, Margaret Chase Smith, the Republican Senator from Maine, who was the first member of her party to take on Joseph McCarthy. And she gave a stunning speech on the floor of the Senate speaking about, uh, how important it was to not only take him on for the good of the country, but for the good of the Republican party.

And if you go back and you read that and- and we quote from it in the book, you have to ask yourself, where is anybody from the Republican party willing to be the Margaret Chase Smith. You know, there's one obvious candidate who happens to be a woman, Republican Senator from Maine who could take on that role. Um, but there are others as well. And so it is especially important, um, at this moment for citizens to educate themselves to learn about what impeachment is and what it isn't. To understand the reason the founders put it in the document to begin with. Uh, and to follow the evidence because we're getting more and more evidence all the time about abuse of power, about obstruction of justice and about contempt of Congress. Um, and this assault on our rule of law and our checks and balances among the three branches of government is a serious threat to our democracy and to our constitution.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:35:26] Thank you. Um, to stay on the- the constitutional question just for a moment. Um, another, you know, issue that has come from time to time and I have some great uh, women l- lawyer friends who are constitutionalist who worry a bit about the process of it, but the equal rights amendment comes up from time to time. I know it's come up before. Um, and the idea of going back and looking at the constitution and putting it in explicit protection for women i- i- the risk of that of course if you open up the constitution to a convention, all sorts of things that you might not want might wind up also debate and mind up in there. Do you think, just looking at it from your point of view, is that risk worth it? I think it's 33 or 34 States that have already ratified it.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:36:09] Well, you know, there's two ways to amend the constitution. One through a convention and one through the process that the equal rights amendment was, uh, following, which is to have, uh, States, uh, vote in favor of it. And you're right, we're- we're very close in the number of States that are needed to, uh, add the equal rights amendment. So you wouldn't have to go the convention route, which I- I do think given the passions of our time would be, uh, a very difficult process to say the least. Uh, what right now we're trying to do is defend the constitution we've got and try to make sure that it's principles are, uh, respected. So I do think that there could be, there was a hope that Virginia would have passed it. That was one of the States that, uh, people were uh, hoping for. Uh, it may be that after this, uh, next election, because Virginia elects their state legislature in the off years, so they're actually having an election in November.

There might be enough votes to revisit it. And I know that the people who are advocating for it in uh, Virginia intend to do that. Um, so it- it is unfinished business, um, because part o- we write about the suffrage movement and- a- and you know, there's a really important story to be talked about and discussed and taught in schools because next year is the hundredth anniversary of uh, women in the United States getting, uh, the right to vote. And it was so hard and it took so long. And even once it was achieved, black women, native American women, Latino women were often prevented uh, from voting even though they had the constitutional right.

It's just been so difficult to get uh, a quality uh, under the constitution. Because, you know, originally as Barbara Jordan famously says in uh, this great speech she gave when she voted for the articles of impeachment against Nixon, and we quote some of it in the book 'cause she's one of my personal, uh, heroines. She said, "You know, when that constitution was written, I- I was not included. And for the longest time I thought George Washington and Alexander Hamilton had just overlooked me [laughs]. Uh, but then we kept going and we kept adding people and- and now, you know, it is more inclusive, but we have to protect it. We can't take it for granted." Um, so I think there's still work that should be done, but in the right way so it doesn't cause more problems.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:38:31] And- and Joy, you know, one of the really kind of vigorous proponents of the equal rights amendment in the 1970s was Betty Ford. A- and so again, I think it's important in this moment to remember, um, that we have really heroic Republican women who stood against you know, incredible kind of forces in their own party for what they knew was right. Um, often for kind of reasons as my mom kind of said from Margaret Chase Smith because they believed it was not only the right thing for our country, but also for their party. And we've been thinking a lot about and of Betty Ford because it's breast cancer awareness month.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:39:11] Yeah.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:39:11] And one of the things I didn't know until my grandmother got breast cancer was how much kind of our family and every family, um, the millions of American families who have had to confront breast cancer and our own stories really owed uh, owed Betty Ford, you know, for her courage, um, and gutsiness and kind of publicly talking about and showing her experience with breast cancer and her husband and in the hospital standing next to her after her mastectomy, you know, effectively saying, you know, there should be no shame attached to this diagnosis or this treatment and how profound that was for our country and how then that became part of our family's story too. Um, but she was an incredibly kinda gutsy Republican woman and as my mom and I perhaps not surprisingly to anyone here you frequently talk about is kind of, we wish there were more of them today.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:40:09] Yeah. Well speaking on- on a, on a different uh, subject, um, another place where women both have to fight for equality and have to have a lot of guts to do it is of course athletics. Um, I love that you include Abby Wambach in his book. I personally think Abby Wambach is one of the greatest athletes and also-

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:40:25] She is, she is.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:40:25] ... fiercest people up there. Yes. So talk a little bit about that too because I liked the fact that you both talk about sort of heroes in the political world, sort of the thing I'm obsessed with, but also in athletics. You talk about women who've happened to overcome uh, resistance to women participate in sports and equal pay is an issue [crosstalk 00:40:43]-

Chelsea Clinton: [00:40:43] Yes, yes. And thank you to the U.S. uh, women's national team for taking this issue on head on. And you know, I, you know, I loved soccer as a kid, Joy so much, although I quickly realized that I had, um, not enough talent to match my love for the sport. Um, but I just kind of was captivated by kind of our American uh, women's soccer team, particularly kind of in- in 1999 [inaudible 00:41:20] when we won the world cup and then kind of the tidal wave that, that really helped unleash of- of girls and young women playing soccer. But one of the things that my mom and I learned when we kinda were working on this book was, you know, really how much women's soccer around the world owes to title nine.

You know, that before kind of title nine, there were about 700, um, girls who played kind of serious competitive soccer in the United States. Last year there were 390,000. And so many of the, um, women that we watched in the magnificent world cup that we won [laughs] this summer, um, had gone to university here Joy, not only on the American team, but many of the kind of incredible athletes on other teams who were competing. And part of what kind of, we really felt so compelled though to include, and I've Abby's story, is that she kind of defines gutsiness for us.

That it wasn't just kind of her dream, it was what she felt compelled to do for other women athletes, kind of her just fierceness when she kind of kissed her then wife after that tremendous victory a few years ago that she was so unapologetically all of herself and said, "You know, if you're going to accept my kind of incredible talent on the field, you have to accept like the incredible love I feel in my heart." So just all that she's done for so kind of, many of us who kind of love the sport kind of believe in equal pay, believe in equal rights, I think is really tremendous. So we could not have not included her, I would say.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:43:05] Well, I have questions uh, here from the audience I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw those out to- to both of you. Um, and thank you all for sending them in, lots of people wanna talk to you ladies. So here's the first one. I love this question. What advice would you give to a 17 year old gutsy woman entering the world and it's [Cavia Desu 00:43:21] who has that question, who's a high school senior. Do you wanna jump in that either way? Jump in.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:43:26] Great. Um, so I- I guess the first thing I would say is I love the fact you described yourself as gutsy, um, own that and feel good about it. And it's different for everybody. And- and that's something that Chelsea and I believe so strongly. Um, we've just talk about an athlete and- and before that, talking about a politician and talking about activists finding whatever your uh, sense of purpose is in your life and then going after it and being committed to it is a- a big part of being gutsy. Now we also think for the women that we highlight, making sure you're doing something for somebody else, uh, is a really special element of being gutsy. So it's not only what you want for yourself, but how you intend uh, to help others or to provide service.

And at 17, I don't know if you're a junior or a senior, um, but thinking about your next steps, uh, whatever they might be, and being determined to, uh, really test yourself, you know, t- taking courses or pursuing, uh, educational or employment opportunities, uh, that you are going to find challenging and constantly, you know, just making it as possible as you can, that you're going to continue to grow and that you will keep finding new ways to, uh, define your life and create, uh, opportunities for yourself.

Uh, because these women, they are not perfect. And- and we make that point absolutely clearly because I believe that too many young women are crippled by their belief they have to be perfect. You know, perfectionism is a disease and it is something that prevents too many smart, gutsy, uh, women of all ages, but particularly young women to take the risks that might be, uh, required to continue to uh, mature and develop into the person you're meant to be. Uh, so I'm- I'm a big advocate for do the best you can. Take stock of what you did, learn from your shortcomings and your mistakes, but don't be paralyzed because you're not perfect.

And I would just add, um, some advice that my mother kind of gave to me that I'll kind of summarize the saying. It's really important to take serious criticism from serious people. Seriously. The people that you respect, your teachers, your family, kind of mentors, advisors. It's also important to not take serious criticism from unserious people. The people who just wanna tear you down, demean you kind of box you in.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:46:29] All right. Um, the question, and this is um, this source hasn't signed their name, but was it harder to write about living women whose stories are still unfolding than about historical figures? It's a good question.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:46:40] That's a great question. And you're the first person who's asked us that question, so thank you. Um, yes, I think there is an additional kind of responsibility, um, in writing about someone who is still alive and still kind of living their life and kind of bringing their gutsiness to bear on whatever kind of issue they're called to. Um, because you don't want it to seem like the story's over because it isn't. Um, and yet of course when you're kind of writing an essay, you do have to have a conclusion. So I- I think there is a- a different challenge in ensuring that kind of an essay about a woman who is still is kind of working and doing in the world and it feels coherent but also clearly is- is unfinished. So absolutely, I think it's a different challenge.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:47:31] So I have two, uh, young people, one who was 10 named Tess and one named Arnie, who is 13, who both want to know if you're gonna run for president again, but I'm not gonna make you answer if you don't want to [laughs]. Um, but I have to read this one. And this uh, person who wrote this is nine and I have to ask you this 'cause it's so sweet. It um, and this nine year old who didn't sign their name said, I want to be the president when I grow up. What should I study in college? P.S. I am nine, P.S. you're my hero [laughs].

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:48:01] Aww, wow. You are a gutsy woman [laughs]. I love that. Um, well if you're nine, I hope that you study really hard between now and college uh, you take advantage of your education and you read, you read as much as you have time for. Uh, because reading gives you a different perspective, it provides a- an opportunity to really, you know, take your imagination and fly with it. Uh, and that you also begin to think about, um, you know, what really makes you excited. Uh, the- the women in, uh, this book, some of them knew f- from the very beginning what they wanted to do. You know, some of them who were athletes or- or Billie Jean King for example, who started playing tennis as a young, a young girl and- and just fell in love with it. Others did not come to their purpose in life until later. And sometimes it was a tragedy, like the gun violence stories that ignited that.

Um, but one thing is that when, uh, they were confronted by the hard work or the risks necessary to pursue their interests, they were prepared. And the best way to be prepared is a good education, there is no substitute for that. And whatever it is, you study, whatever it is you get excited about, uh, just go all in on it. Really en- enjoy the process of learning and have fun along the way and- and value your friends and make friends. And- and if you are getting um, a little older in your community, look for something that you can do to help somebody else because I think you learn as much about yourself um, through helping somebody else and- and empathizing, putting yourself in that position as you do in any other aspect of your life.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:50:05] And I would just add, um, since we're here in Philadelphia and at the Constitution Center, there are so many incredible places here to help compliment whatever you're learning in school. So not only kind of in the obvious sense as I'm staring at the words, we, the people kind of understanding, um, kind of the history of our country and this still deeply unfinished business to ensure we are a more perfect union. Um, but also really I would hope to become kind of literate in, in the sciences. Um, you know, we, we're talking about Greta Annenberg earlier who has just been so stalwart and saying, you know, these are not her opinions, but she's really eloquent when she's talking about kind of what scientists are saying even though she herself isn't a scientist.

One of my great passions is to try to help people understand why it's so important to get vaccinated and it's flu season, please get your flu vaccine, um, to help protect those you can't, including my two month old son, Jasper. Um, so pleased not only for yourself but for those who are more vulnerable. And I think in this moment kind of where facts and truth and science are so under assault. It's really important to be kind of fluent in- in the sciences broadly, even if that's not what you are particularly passionate about. So please go to the Franklin Institute and take advantage of all of the extraordinary [laughs] things that exist here in Philadelphia.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:51:27] Well, I wanna thank these two gutsy women, Chelsea Clinton, secretary Hillary, I would have to give the honorific you earned it. Secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton. Thank you all for being here. You will love you book-

Chelsea Clinton: [00:51:40] Thank you very much, thank you.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:51:40] ... and you will love this book.

Chelsea Clinton: [00:51:42] Thank you, Joy.

Joy-Ann Reid: [00:51:42] Thank you all very much. And thank you National Constitution Center.

Sec. Hillary Clinton:[00:51:43] Thank you.

Tanaya Tauber: [00:52:03] This episode was engineered by Dave Stotz and produced by me Tanaya Tauber and Jackie McDermott. If you enjoyed this constitutional conversation, please rate, review and subscribe to the show and tell your friends about it. And check out our companion podcast, We the People, a weekly show of constitutional debate that's available wherever you get your podcasts. On behalf of the National Constitution Center, I am Tanaya Tauber.

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